 CTV.ca |
Israel: 4 Palestinians Charged in Killing of US Woman
New York Times Four Palestinians were charged on Wednesday with the murder of an American tourist, Kristine Luken, who was killed in a forest outside Jerusalem in December. Ms. Luken, an evangelical Christian in her mid-40s, had been hiking with a … Murder survivor: I still have flashbacks 'What a waste, I'm 46 years old and I'm being murdered' Two held over US tourist's murder |
Read more… Nation – Google News
The Hindu |
Only authentic leaders can deliver a Middle East peace
The Guardian It's a tragedy for the Palestinian people that at a time when their cause is the focus of greater global popular support than ever in their history, their own political movements to win their rights are in such debilitating disarray. … Palestinians agreed to have settlers live under their rule, documents show Al-Jazeera skewers PA: Colluded in killing 'own people' 'Israel, PA plotted murder of Fatah terrorist' |
Read more… Nation – Google News
Brisbane Times |
Secret files 'reveal British plan to weaken Hamas'
AFP LONDON — British intelligence services helped draw up a secret plan to weaken the radical Palestinian movement Hamas, the Guardian reported on Wednesday. The documents, shared with the newspaper by Al-Jazeera television, called for the internment of … 'No Comment' On MI6 Hamas Plan Memos reveal UK plan against Hamas MI6 created blueprint for smashing Hamas |
Read more… Nation – Google News
13th July: 50 civilians killed in Lebanon, 3 civilians killed in israel
A lesson in Israeli Math:
For the past two weeks Israel has also been bombing Gaza from sea, land and air, 60 civilians were killed among which a family of 9 including the parents and the children. All of this was in response to the capture of 1 israeli solider.
Israel has done the same in Lebanon yesterday, the outcome of the first day of combat is 50 civilians killed among which an entire family of 12, add to that lots of infrastructure bombed: 3 airports, an electricity plant, countless bridges etc. That was -of course- as Israel would put it, a legitimate response to Hizbollah’s capture of 2 Israeli soliders, after earlier clashes at the border… Now it’s almost a full-scale war, with Hizbollah continuously retaliating on northern Israel while the Israeli military machine executes an air-sea-land blockade and hits deep targets in Lebanon all the way up to the southern suburb of Beirut and the north of Baalbeck.
Moral of the story
Moral of the story as Israel would like the world in general and the arabs to understand:
-An eye for an eye raised by 2 orders of magnitude= For 1 Israeli eye, 50-100 arab eyes + 10 bridges + 3 airports are required in exchange
-We Israelis are dangerous don’t step on our toes, don’t even come close to our toes… Hell don’t think of dreaming of having your shadow step on our toes!!! (Capisce!)
-We’re strong (with a roar)
-We’re lethal and we mean it
-Ah yep, the world’s only superpower is 100% behind us, coz the US is 100% behind the lovers of freedom and democracy and human rights and who else than Israel in this whole pathetic excuse of a Middle-East, mollests freedom and democracy and human rights as good as us… daily (out of pure love & lust)… ooohh yeah!
-Did I say we’re strong? Ah yep, yep, we are strong and don’t you forget that
Therapy couldn’t even curb our anger
In a way the real story behind it goes more like this:
We Israelis are victims of history and we have a big complex out of it, and therapy wouldn’t work. So, meanwhile Arabs (that means you poor little people around) have to suffer for the sins of the Roman empire, European Catholics, the Tsar of all Russias and last but not the least Mr. Adolf and friends! We are self-righteous, and we’re allowed to! After all, didn’t you watch Munich?!
Unfortunate fact
It is unfortunate that civilians have to die anywhere even in Israel. Almost all Israelis have immigrated there based on Zonist scheming propaganda (apart from the minority real refugees in WW2); the all encompassing Zionist machine continuously inviting jews all the way from the US to Yemen to Russia to Ethiopia etc… to immigrate to the promised land… of opportunity… and security… and hard work… asking them romantically and so innocently to come and plant trees and let the desert blossom and reap the milk and the honey (although that last part from the Bible is used for describing Lebanon)… The vast majority of Israelis even those in the army are like most people all around the world: Decent human beings looking for opportunity to have a good life and build a future for their children. Israel lures them into the trap, corners them, brainwashes the living daylights out of them and turns them into soldiers or more accurately into the fuel that foolish dreams (more like nightmares) are made of!
Palestinians are not imaginary creatures and the negotiation theory is not only about ball-busting!
Under the alibi of self-defense, Israel continues to turn its back to the miseries and injustice it created and continues to do towards the Palestinians. Israel wishes Palestinians didn’t exist because that could solve all the problems! YET THEY DO! And until Israeli politics finds a way to fix the injustice by making real peace building concessions that it can stick to -instead of the ‘negotiatory’ acrobatics it is so proficient in doing- all this madness is going to perpetuate itself!
Related posts:
- Al-Jazeera skewers PA: Collaborated in killing ‘own people’ – Jerusalem Post-Israel
- Palestinians condemn US plan to settle refugees in South America – The Guardian-Israel
Tags: Charged, Israel, killing, Palestinians, TimesIsrael, Woman, York
The road to annihiliation
Israel’s glorification of its military might and its blind worship of the founding myths of the Israeli state and Zionist forefathers will only lead to more incomprehensible and escalating violence and innocent civilian casualties until one of the parties annihilates the other! And we all can imagine how that might look like using the 20th century very efficient weaponry (as the 21st hasn’t produced any marvels of its own yet, or at least that we know of!).
Failed business plan
Israel should stop blindly following the already failed ‘business plan’ established by the forefathers of Zionism 100+ years ago, for whatever military might it managed to build, and whatever brainwashing disinformative ideas it managed to sell, the fact is, it is still a small nation occupying somebody else’s land surrounded by two hundred million human beings that it managed to turn into sworn enemies throughout a 100+ years of aggression (and not just since WWII as they like to claim).
Israel cannot win and it can’t lose in the foreseeable future either, Israel political and military doctrine will lead one day to mega-disasters (eclipsing its current mega-feats). This will happen, even if Israel is obviously making short term gains and allowing some of its politicians to weasel their way into the wide door of history and glory.
History has more patience than politics
In this region of the world, history points into one direction, and I don’t see how this direction would at all be favorable to the ‘current Israel’! If Israel’s ultimate goal is to be a haven for Jews from future persecution, the current policies of the state of Israel are going to make it the chief reason for their future worries!
If the pee brains that are in power in Israel don’t stop looking at their immediate political gains and start looking at how they can build a seriously secure future for themselves and the Palestinians, we are all going to continue suffering till kingdom comes. One thing our region doesn’t obviously lack is patience! Time here goes slowly, years are counted in days and centuries in years, unfortunately for Israel, people’s emotions, aspirations and dreams don’t follow the stock market… For them "Kingdom comes" is what matters and "Kingdom comes" is probably tomorrow or worst comes to worst next year, and that’s not a long time to wait…
There will be life after zionism
The current model of Israel as established by the Zionist institution is from the 19th century and from definitely different times… The way it is going, it is destined to crash as it is built on an anomaly, it takes a lot of effort to maintain such an anomaly – just look at the effort it has taken so far… Israelis should one day start thinking outside of the box -and that is the box of Zionism- and maybe then we could live happily ever after, I mean whoever is left to live ever after then… sadly!
Rabih, I still did not listen to the news this morning nor I had time to read the text above. I’ll read on my way to work. Only I wish you, your family and friends, Lebanon and the whole region safety from this Israeli madness. I hope one day we’ll have peace of mind there. I hate it that people die. But I only ask myself why should they die only on one side of the conflict (Palestinians, Lebanese,..)?
thanks Klix… things are still mainly okay around beirut… hope they remain.
"Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of baseless hatred for the Arabs. It is bound to bring eventual ruin upon us. Only then will the old and the young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable wronged Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruit of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather and in whose cities that we robbed, we put up houses of education, charity and prayer, while we babble and rave about our being the "people of the Book" and the "Light of the Nations."
–Nathan Chofshi, Tel Aviv, 1961
Just to bring things into perspective, Israel could have lived in peace with Lebanon just like it does with Jordan if your government would have followed the UN resolution to disarm the Hezbollah and end all Syrian influence.
It would have never come to this if your government have had full control over its territories, like in every corrected country. Too bad you have to suffer for this.
In contrast to what some Arab nations would like you to believe, my country *can* and will struggle to live in peace with its neighbors despite the harsh difficulties – as long as that remains being valid, there’s hope for you and me, and everybody else.
FlickrJunkie -
Would like to publish your photo on NowPublic.com.
Please contact me a mschneider [at] nowpublic [dot] com.
Many thanks Mark Schneider
FlickrJunkie / Rabih:
I saw the Newspaper headlines yesterday and I thought of you right away, as well as the families of my other friends in Lebanon. I came here to see if you had any news and I’m glad you do. You sound pretty angry and fed up and I can’t say I blame you.
You are really quite a writer, you have so much to say and you say it well. The viewpoint you express hear is not one we hear a lot where I am so I am glad to read about this.
Does life go on there in Beruit? Or did everything shut down for a while?
I’m sorry to hear that you and your people there are experiencing all this military aggression and violence. Sound like acts of Terror to me. It is hard to understand why the U. S. permits Israel to do all this, but the two have been so buddy-buddy for so long.
According to the LA Times here, things are not looking good and it will probably escalate.
My mother, sister and niece were planning to travel to Israel in a few weeks, my guess is that they won’t be able to go. They were going to someone cousin’s wedding and to be tourists. Do you think they will still be able to go?
So take care of your self, watch out for those bombs, and send us some pictures please.
Rabih you couldn’t have said it better… Thank you for sharing this with the world of flickr… What a shame… It’s quite unfair and I think Israel has indeed crossed the line here… I understand their fury towards Hizballah but it’s so sad that Lebanon pays the price the way it is at the moment… I hate politics and I hate war- I never got it and probably never will_ I don’t see why we can’t come together and live peacefully as brothers and sisters for in the end (as corny as it may sound), we are all the children of God…
Keep writing, hugs xoxox
(hope your family is well and safe)
by the way, where and when was this photo taken?
Rabih hi,
I want your permission to repost your article. I will link to you.
Is this fine with you?
Regardless to one UN resolution or another, a country needs to have control over its territories and borders. If a country cannot enforce its borders and instead let things out of control, then its neighbors need to take measures, and these are the measures Israel is taking.
@Geo8: Thanks for your comment, you said exactly what i wanted to answer.
@da-x: I take it you are well intentioned, I believe most people in this world are… We don’t think Israel as a state is well intentioned though…
Your country doesn’t want peace, I have been following up the ‘negotiatory acrobatics’ your politicians are so good at for years, they don’t show any bit of decency or good intentions. I refer you to Righteous Victims by Benny Morris who is a professor at Ben Gurion university.
Lebanon has 500000 palestinian refugees, is Israel willing to let them return to their land? I guess not… Zionism won’t permit it… We won’t have peace under such conditions. And the problem is not Hizbollah, it runs deeper, 130 years deep so far…
All good intentions of decent people on both sides can’t erase injustice by wishful thinking, injustice needs brave and honourable action. Definitely the amateur politician mayor turned prime minister or his murderer predecessor are not the honourable people that can take such action for now.
@blennerhassett222: Please feel free to use it
@alchimiste2006: thanks for your comment
@MS4JAH: Thanks for your concern and compliments on my writing. I’m currently outside lebanon. Unfortunately Israel & Co. control the media in the US, they are very proficient in disinformation techniques, can scream very loud and so most US citizens don’t end up hearing the other point of view unless they’re digging deep for it. I think L.A. times has most of the time a balanced point of view, but even that is shy compared to the naked truth in here…
Beirut is getting worse, shutdown for now… Israely army is a terrorist organization and this is not new… (can post a lot about that later).
I don’t know about the situation in a few weeks… seems to be escalating…
@cocolinda: txs, I will be writing more… peace and love is not what imperialism wants… this photo was taken last year in a demonstation down town Beirut.
@lifelaw: Please repost. txs
I’ve personally met some of our politicians in closed doors and I can attest that peace is the goal of all of them, the only arguement between them is *how*. However, because of the circumstances it doesn’t appear that way to you, I understand. This ‘how’ is so complicated to answer, and it is the main cause of debate and mistakes.
With regard to good intentions, Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip last year, showing great intentions for peace and all it got was missile fire from the evacuated territories. Personally, I think that taking over the west bank and Gaza back in 1967 was a mistake that made the situation a lot more complicated to solve, making that ‘how’ a lot bigger.
There were other mistakes, of course. But the existence of Israel by itself is not one of them, because among other things it advanced the world scientifically and technologically in a way most people don’t even begin to realize. Yes, I personally regard scientifical advancement very important, and that’s the first thing to make me proud about my country. If hypothetically Israel was situated in an island next to Japan I couldn’t care less, as I don’t follow the Jewish heritage, I don’t mind where Israel exists as long as it does, and in peace.
Living a life full of what you feel is injustice, is a mistake by itself. Japan could have felt great injustice because of their huge loss in the WWII. They have lost their big and immense empire and a lot of additional territories, but they have delt with it. They are happy and peaceful now. Imagine that the US would have still suffered Kamikaze-like hits for 60 years now. It wouldn’t have been good for either sides, I believe.
Oh, and the Japanese care a lot about honour, you know that Arabs too. A good a side effect to WWII shows that the Japanese regard national honour to a degree that makes it possible to overcome differences, and that is very important for making peace.
Do you think "to let them return to their land" is the only solution, and the only compensation possible? I don’t think so. Making peace is involved with dealing with these differences and making the best compensation for each side possible. If you come and say that no other term except yours is possible then you are the one who doesn’t want peace.
@Geo8: You can feed your mind from incorrect and biased Internet or TV propaganda or you can directly talk with whom you have differences. I choose the latter. Your examples are way out of context and serve a red herring to the main issue. I think that my example regarding Japan is much more relevant. Regarding the UN resolution – you forced to generalize the context of the discussion – I just reflected upon it. Sure it is relevant.
@da-x: I hate this turning into a tit for tat debate… The formidable jewish intellectual heritage has enriched the world for thousands of years in religion, ethics, science, music, litterature etc. Jewish heritage is fantastic, it so positively affected our culture and lives in so many ways that many people don’t even realize… and this is coming from an arab! But most of it historically didn’t need the state Israel to flourish anyway, the present shouldn’t need to be any different… And just justifying Israel’s existence as necessary for scientific progress is (pardon my saying) silly… Go tell the little girl that found her family blown to pieces in Gaza on the beach that all this was for her to get a nano-technology rain coat at her 18th birthday…
Now to comment your japan analogy… After the war Japan had to drop its imperialistic dreams and leave other countries that it was occupying, but Japanese stayed in Japan and they were able to rebuild it… That’s why Japan seemed Okay with the US after that… The US is not occupying Japan today… Japan went to war with a certain doctrine, it lost and accepted it honourably… If 50 Million Japanse were refugees in China and the US was still in Japan today, the situation would have been much different… Or am I delusional?
Israel today is a fact… I don’t care much about how it came to exist nor I wish for it to cease to exist… Israel is several million people that live in one place that they consider home and many were born there… And they should be allowed to live in peace for all that I could care… Now tell all those politicians that you know, to act in good faith, and that’s how they can get real peace if they’re still wandering how!
Yes Israel had evacuated 9000 illegal settlers from Gaza with a big media bang but your illegal settlements in the West bank (and their road networks and the protection buffer zones) are chewing 40% of it… The settlements are still growing by the way, Israel is still luring jews from around the world to come into those settlements while it doesn’t allow palestinians to return to their land on the other hand… That’s as far as the good intentions of Zionism go for now!
With Zionism there will be no peace, Zionism is blind… It is controlling the state of Israel with a 19th century mind and objectives… 19th century nationalism is obsolete… This insane doctrine is not needed, a pure Jewish state is not needed to protect the jews… It is not doing it anyway! Do you wanna live in a state of war for another 100 years? Where are the brave politicians that can take real concessions, not just build walls and shmooze in front of the world media?
Thanks Rabih,
It is now posted on my blog and on the Lebanese Blogger Forum.
First, with regards to the Ralia family, in war these kind of unwanted incidents happen. As a former soldier I can personally attest that the IDF avoids killing innocent civilians as much as possible, unlike other armies. Recall Jordan’s "Black Septemeber" in 1970… and you’re saying Israelis aren’t merciful? I’ve met military personnel from all ranks and I think you should know that they earn nothing from innocent deaths. Moreover, you don’t see any joy rallis in Tel Aviv when people on the other side die. Death on either side brings no glory to us. Every military decision that accidently led to the death of innocent lives was thoughtly made under the willingness to protect this country and its citizens (which are Jews *and* Arabs). This makes a rather different value system than of Hamas, for which the evidence for glory in death can be unbiasedly seen in many ways (the rallies, for instance).
Regarding Japan, this is different because the Japanese didn’t seek refuge. They stayed. If the Palestinians stayed, they could have been proud Israeli arab citizens today, or – we could have had two peaceful states.
Regarding the west bank, it would be right to evacuate *however* Hania considers this move void of content. Now that makes second thoughts for Israelis, why should we take that risk? BTW, I’m not sure you got your facts right about the *current* growth of settlements, if you did, I support. Regarding the protection buffer zones, they can be canceled only when worthwhile peace is achieved – it is a deep trust issue, and patience is needed to solve it eventually
Regarding Zionism and peace, I don’t support the ‘pure Jewish state’ concept, but the ‘partial Zionism’ still depicts that I can live in Tel-Aviv, and if you can make peace with that then it is worthwhile to try.
The brave politicians you mention do exist, but the current circumstances don’t make it possible to go further.
Lebanon established the ratio several years ago: 400 live Lebanese are equal to 3 dead Israelis.
wow this is quite a debate here…. I am far from being a political kind of person… To me politics is all based on lies, deceit, cheat, and corrupt things in general… sadly it’s always innocent people paying the price…
@Geo8: I loved you comments… they are great…keep writing
The situation is really becoming more and more unfair… Israel has to STOP… their reactions are completly disproportionate… they just bombed all the ports in Lebanon… enough is enough
It’s funny seeing my last writing so democratically deleted because I dared saying the truth about the Hizbualla and Hamas murderers
I know you also threatend to block me from this page…
I’m not surprised nor expected a different reaction.
I also heard you cursed me just as much as you could which makes my heart aches deeply.
Be my guest friend, block me.. I have no interest writing here more then the truth I already wrote.
Much to your dismay what I wrote was the truth nonetheless!!
Before I go I’d like to remind you that this page is the ONLY place where you have sufficient power to banish me, or as I wrote before:
WE ARE HERE TO STAY, AND WE WILL!!!
Good day, have fun writing lies and Nazi propaganda in disguise of a political argument
@Tespis: you little fuck, you deleted your previous post, so I deleted my reply to you… Now you’re back so here’s my previous reply again… You’re a real moron for posting this… Yes you’re very strong and you’re here to stay… I understand… Try therapy and I dare you repost what you have deleted earlier you racist little fuck.
@Tespis: You miserable little rude and ignorant fuck, I was trying to have a civilized debate here. Or that’s too hard for your little brainwashed pee brain to decipher?!?
Some of my best friends are jews you little fuck… Who said anything about murdering jews? Do you watch the news on the other side at all and see what’s your government and army are doing?
You pathetic excuse for a human being? How many arab friends do you have? do you know any arabs? did you try decently talking to any?
What do you know about your bloody history?
You talk about families worried for their children? how many illegally detained lebanese are or were in Israel? and how many illegally detained Palestinians? And for how many years they’ve been detained? How many children did Israel kill in the past 6 years only? How many refugees dis Israel create? Do you know anything about Israeli Math?
I won’t delete your comment just for people to learn your ignorance… Don’t you post anything here anymore or I will block you, go masturbate yourself over your moral superiority and high human standards elsewhere you self righteous fuck!
@Tespis: most of what is stated here are FACTS…facts that sadly certain Israelis wish to ignore… I am in no way defending Hizballah for I, in no manner, agree with their behaviour… but Israel has reacted unfairly and is punishing a country which is not fully responsible for the actions of a fanatic party. No one can argue that. What matters in the end is what is happening NOW. Enough is enough. I feel quite sorry for you if you are that ignorant to think people are writing Nazi propaganda in disguise_ clearly you must have some issues… Neverthless I still wish peace for everyone…
I really don’t understand what you expect Israel to do in this situation.
A) Hezbollah builds up offensive forces along the border, with no provocation, Israel eats it up.
B) Hezbollah attacks randomly, Israel shoots some obligatory warning shells, and eats it up.
C) Hezbollah kidnaps and kills 3 soldiers, Israel trades detainees, and eats it up.
D) Hezbollah kidnaps and kills 5 more soldiers, and starts firing deep into Israel, killing Israeli citizens deep inside Israel.
ISRAEL CAN NO LONGER EAT IT UP.
I mean, what the hell did you expect?
Israel expects to prevent the NEXT abduction or killing of Israeli soldiers coming from Lebanese territory.
Israel has done quite a lot for peace, as I outlined in items A through C.
There’s simply a red line somewhere, and the last attack from Lebanon crossed it, bigtime.
Yes, you do.
You prevent abduction by making it costly.
Puts a price tag on the whole thing.
Maybe now the Lebanese government will take control of its lands seriously.
apparently the spirit of nazis is alive and well in lebanon.
disgusting.
@polyrealism : clearly you are completly ignorant… maybe you should start reading more or meeting Lebanese people… Hizballah doesn’t represent the majority of Lebanese people!! What about all the Palestinian children that were murdered by Israelis???!!! Incredible how almost everytime something happens, the world has to be reminded about the atrocities and massacre of the Jews in World War II. What happened then should have nevere happened and it was horrific… But we are in the 21st century… so many other people have died and been massacred other than the Jews… Do you know anything about Rwanda? Vietnam? Iraq???? Maybe you should look around and see it’s not always about Jews!!! No offense, but with such an attitude and people never getting over the past, no one will ever achieve peace!! (To me, this is what is disgusting)
@gnupeaker: Israel wishes to protect itself_ fair enough… But destroying the whole country’s infrastructure is not the way to go about it… clearly Israel (backed by the US) most probably created the scenario so that all of this could happen… An excuse to enter Lebanon and an excuse for the US to get to Syria and Iran… Sadly Lebanon is the battlefield for all this crap… Hizballah does not represent the whole of Lebanon and I don’t see what’s the point of stranding everyone in Lebanon and making sure there is no way out just to punish Hizballah and make them disarm… Let Lebanon deal with it’s country alone… But American and Israeli politics enjoy interfering with what’s not theirs in general… quite sad…
When will the madness stop??? Christ, we are all human in the end… all made the same… all this fighting for land and for religion??? uugghhh it makes me sick
PEACE to everyone
@Rabih: hugs xx
What really pisses me off at times is when I read headlines such as:
"Four Israeli troops missing after warship hit "
Why can’t the headlines read:
"Israel bombs Central Beirut and kills 33 civilians" (what happened earlier today)
@da-x: Unwanted incidents are happening very frequently however. IDF says openly it is avoiding the killing of civilians, yet it is only killing civilians! I am not generalizing on all Israelis, as I said earlier I believe that most Israelis are peace loving, you sound like one… Yet the practice of the IDF and the political don’t seem like a philantropic organization.
We may condemn people jubilating the death of Israelis or any death, but this does not eclipse our condemntation for who is actually performing the wider systematic extermination of civilians. Numbers talk!
The Japanese didn’t seek refuge because the US didn’t want to "transfer" them out of their country. The Palestinian refugees fled after numerous terrorizing massacres done by the Haganah, some of those acts are documented by the UN such as Deir Yassin. The israeli "transfer" policies are responsible for the refugee situation. I find it funny that Israel does all what it can to terrorize people and drive them out of their land, then say: Hey, they left… now they can’t return!
The palestinians you are calling ‘proud israeli citizens’ who are now called Israeli arabs are not that proud after all. They are second grade citizens in a Jewish state living in an appartide regime.
The settlement problem in the west bank dates way before Hania… Just follow up the history of negotiations of Israel and Palestinians and you’ll see that as they’ve been negotiating in Madrid, Oslo, Wye river the Israelis were illegally creating settlements. One of the champions of this policy is murdureous Sharon who took proud of supporting illegal settlements.
I’m glad you don’t support a pure Jewish state… Nobody should support a pure Jewsish anything… I hope you can still live in Tel-Aviv and would even be happy to visit you one distant day but pressure your government to take the brave and courageous way out, and this doesn’t go through muscle flexing deploying all your war machine over civilians in Lebanon or Palestine just to terrorize them from ever thinking of seeking justice in the future… This doesn’t work! It’s childish mind games fought with toys made for grown ups, tell that to the amateur politician mayor turned prime minister.
@gnupeaker: I find it funny that you call A-D facts… they’re very inaccurate… I invite you to read news on the other side and in world media… Nobody killed any Israeli citizens first It is Israel that is killing civilians.
Talking about the red line, Israel has crossed it a long time ago…
Some hard figures since 2000 only:
-734 Palestinian children killed
-4000 Palestinians killed
-30000 Palestinians injured
-9599 Palestinians being detained by Israel
-4170 Palestinian Homes demolished by Israel
-60+ new illegal jewish settlements on Palestinian land
Israel has violated 63 UN resolutions so far not counting those vetoed by the US.
ISRAEL WILL NOT PROTECT ITSELF THIS WAY. As an example, the racist internationally condemened wall around the west bank did not prevent palestinaians from firing rockets above the wall nor digging tunnels underneath it, put people in the corner, kill their children, de-develop their land, steal their resources, then keep hitting them more so you can protect yourself from them getting angrier because of you. Please read what I wrote at the top of the post and try to reflect upon it… The brute force policies of Israel are leading to more disasters. Your high price tags are creating higher price tags for everyone… Israel’s policies are ridiculously inhuman and retarded.
@polyrealism: Is your pee brain capable only of using nazi to describe your pathetic incomprehension of what’s happening?
@cocolinda: It’s called Zionist disinformation and control of the media. Now of course they will cry foul… "Nooo we don’t control the media"
The numbers are meaningful only for showing the balance of force and luck (or bad luck) during the battle. The intention and actions behind them matter much more. The cold math is cold, and thats it, you have to see behind it.
Fact of war is that there are civilian causalties. IDF targets armed troops. Too bad some of the armed troops hide behind civilians (BTW, I think it is a very morally low defense methodology to use innocent citizens as a "human shield", and for that a new word should be invented, ‘terrorism’ is too inclusive). That doesn’t help to decrease the number of casualties, so we shouldn’t be surprised. The only surprise you can expect from a military conflict is having *no casualties* on either side. I know the set of values that accompanies the fighting in my side of the conflict, and I know that it would be tempting to set them low, but it didn’t happen so far and I’m glad, because if it did, thousands of people would have died just in the last few days.
Notice that I haven’t refered yet to anyone of either side of this conflict as murders or terrorists, although I can. Your choice of words throughout your comments demonstrates a kind of state of mind that would make it impossible to achieve any worthwhile peace treaty. Only a change of mind and realization made it possible to achieve the peace treaties that Israel has signed.
Regardless to what Ha’hagana wanted, some Arabs stayed and lived peacefully to this day. If they all stayed, we wouldn’t have this problem.
If the Israeli arabs chose to see themselves as citizens of this country like the Druze have had, they would have been treated like the Druze, as first class citizens.
I believe Sharon’s change of mind regarding the settlements is admirable, and demonstrated what is needed in order to achieve peace. Many so-called amature politicians throughout history demonstrated great capabilities. Whether he succeeds or not is remained to be seen.
About the Japan-U.S. analogy:
The U.S. army occupied Japan and Germany after WW2. They never left! Both Japan and Germany has American military bases on their soil. Though the U.S. handed over the governance to the democratically elected local officials.
You can consider Germany and Japan occupied by foreign power the same way Iraq is occupied.
About math and proportions:
When Hesbollah or Hamas kills 5 Jewish soldiers and abducts 2, they demand 1000 Arab prisoners for the two abducted in exchange. 1 jew = ~500 arab according to Hesbollah and Hamas. Eye for an eye. Right?
About the RESISTANCE:
Lebanon has no border or land dispute with Israel. Hesbollah had no logical reason to attack an Israeli military post inside Israel. Nor Lebanon neither Hesbollah were attacked by Israel before the abduction. Nor Lebanon neither Hesbollah areas were occupied by Israel. Hesbollah was resisting NOTHING!
Unless we accept Hesbollah’s theses that says Israel should be wiped off of the area completely.
About Lebanon as a legitimate state:
The Lebanese army does not fight the IDF. The Lebanese army does not fight or try to disarm Hesbollah. The Lebanese play victim.
About Palestinians in Lebanon and Israel:
Israeli Arabs have citizenship. There are Arab members of the Israeli Parliament. While Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in camps with restricted rights and without citizenship.
About targeting civilians:
The IDF targets infrastructure like bridges, power plants, airports and buildings that belong to Hesbollah. While Hesbollah openly targets residential areas with no consideration for civilians, or in fact with the admitted intentions of killing as many Israelis as possible.
About overreacting border incidents:
Israel is a paranoid state surrounded by enemies. Hesbollah and Hamas openly say they want Israel off of the map. The Iranian president suggested that Israel should be moved to Europe. When Israel gave the Gaza strip back to Palestinians Hamas immediately moved its rocket launchers closer to Israel to shoot Israeli civilians.
What kind of reaction do you expect from Israel when she is constantly provoked?
The ideal world:
I think the majority of the world would like to see a Palestinian state with the 1967 borders. The Palestinians have every chance to achieve this through negotiations and political forums like the UN. But they are blind to see the opportunity and continue provoking Israel.
The Lebanese have nothing to do with Israel. They had the chance to live in peace together if not for the Hesbollah. Lebanon should disarm Hesbollah and take control of its internal affairs. It is that simple.
Rob.
If you can you should see " Wall", a documentary movie from Simone Bitton ( she’s Jew, from Maroc, lived in Israel and now in France ), about the separation wall built by Israel.
Maybee you will understand why as you say the Palestinians are "blind" : they all live in prison
Rob: you say Lebanon should disarm Hezbollah and take control of it’s internal affairs. So why does Israel need to interfer? (oh, I forgot who backs Israel… this is another Bush kinda thing like when he wanted to free the Iraqi people!!) All this commotion for 2 soldiers?? 2 Israeli soldiers = +140 lebanese civilians dead, all ports bombed, airport bombed (2,3, 4 times?? losing count now…), bombing of bridges, roads, powerplants, water reservoirs, buses, etc…
simple question: do the math, is it fair???
who cares about the past and who started it… it’s like childish behaviour… look at what is happening now. clearly Israel’s attacks ARE disproportionate and most of them uncalled for. The Israeli government clearly doesn’t care about it’s people the same way Hezbollah doesn’t care about Lebanon… Some Israeli’s keep saying that IDF targets only armed troops_ in that case civilians should not be affected… so why is the whole country held hostage then??? for 2 soldiers??!! aahhh!!!
weapons and bombs won’t get anyone anywhere… Israel is only provoking Hezbollah more and more…
peace
alchimiste2006 says: Maybee you will understand why as you say the Palestinians are "blind" : they all live in prison
Just because you live in a prison you shouldn’t be blind!
They got the Gaza strip back. Olmert hinted that Israel would give the West Bank back, too. If indeed there was a Palestinian state the Palestinians could build a port on the Gaza strip and an Airport in the West Bank. They wouldn’t have to live in a prison anymore. But Israel will keep a close lid on Palestinain territories as long as she feels threatened by Hamas fighters.
cocolinda says: So why does Israel need to interfere?
Israel got attacked from Lebanon by Hesbollah. What is it so hard to understand about this?
who started it… it’s like childish behaviour. … Israel is only provoking Hezbollah more and more…
It is quite the other way around. Whoever started it was provoking the other one!!!!
Just because Israel is stronger than its enemies doesn’t mean they are the ones longing for a fight.
Rob
Hezbollah provokes Israel
Israel provokes Hezbollah
Hezbollah provokes Israel
Israel provokes Hezbollah
and it goes on and on and on…
it becomes a vicious circle… boths sides becomes responsible…
(do you know why Hezbollah exists??)
You were the one to say "Lebanon should disarm Hesbollah and take control of its internal affairs. It is that simple." So let Lebanon do so and if Hezbollah still threatens Israel (like it did), then Israel should not interfer with Lebanon but with Hezbollah. The majority of Lebanese people do not follow Hezbollah (just for your information). I do not contest Israel wanting Hezbollah to disarm but I contest the war on Lebanon. This is no longer a war on Hezbollah but an attack on Lebanon as a country. If Israel is not longing for a fight, they wouldn’t have went this far I think… There seems to be ulterior motives behind all what’s happening…
Anyway, I don’t give a damn about the Israeli government as well as Hezbollah, what I do care about in the end are the many innocent civilians being killed from Israelis to Lebanese… If anything needs to be bombed in my opinion it is the leaders of the state and Hezbollah…
peace shalom salam
Carla
carla,
In my first post I tried to point out that it is hard to consider Lebanon a legitimate state because from a military standpoint it does not exists. Hesbollah controls Lebanon with its militia. Lebanese who don’t agree with Hesbollah say that Hesbollah keeps Lebanon hostage. This is true.
About your peace mongering: It is kind of hard to say ‘let there be peace’ when people are shooting at you.
Rob
Hallo, i`m from argentina.
i feel frustration, a very big frustration for not being able to help the lebanese neither the palestinien.
i`m totally against the murderer State of israel, the new Nazis.
i sometimes wish iran and syria attack them just to show them what is to have your kids killed, all those bombs exploding and destroying famlies, lives, and especially every and each human right. Israel is the same shit like the US and the british.
saludos
Nikko
I am so angry and sad at this time that I feel compelled to write something. I read most of the dialogue posted and I have to thank those who are not blinded by false loyalty. To the Israeli’s who are justifying the terror exercised by their state toward innocent people. I ask you? How do you live with yourself……………oh yes…………justifying is the way you can live with yourself otherwise you would either pack up and move or at least fight against what is going on. That is what a good human being does…and there are many people of the Jewish faith who have chosen this road. If I was alive in the 30’s and 40’s I would have fought the Nazi’s and all fascists and defended every Jew with my life. I would have fought for justice and I would have cried for the lives that were taken then as I cry for the injustice and lives that are taken today.
I am a Christian/Jordanian by birth and I have lived in the United States for over 20 years. I am a political activist and I believe in the right of resistance by any means necessary as brother Malcom said. Resistance you fascists, not oppression. Israel has never qualified as such. It’s an oppressor from day one. It tried to justify its existence through the suffering of the Jewish people. Its aims were colonial and its founders were opportunist something it shares with the history of the united states. Talk to the Native Americans who still live in their "Gaza’s".
I heard a number of you talk about how Hizballah are terrorists. Hizballah are a resistance movement who have done what any people would have done in their situation. Organized against external thereat and internal corruption. Yes internal corruption. They established themselves the first time Lebanon was invaded and destroyed by the “benevolent and peace loving Israeli state” with the help of the arab (Muslim and Christian) opportunists. Yes they have a right to resist. And most of you have no clue who those people are. Are they perfect? No one or group is perfect. But they fight for justice and anyone who has followed the news will figure that out. They are guided by moral believes. They have the ability to indiscriminately kill people and they don’t do that. They could have caused major damage to that chemical plant but they avoided it so that many innocent people would not die. They are defending themselves. Israel just thinks it can continue its theft and murder unchecked because it is stronger. It thinks it can kill, imprison and destroy others because might makes right. History has shown that is not the case. Human resistance to oppression is part of our humanity.
Why is Hizballah such a threat …………..because they are the spirit of resistance and revolution in a world that have been beaten into submission. They are not just a threat to Israel but to the outdated and despotic regimes in the Arab/Islamic world. They are an example of people standing up for themselves and that is why they must be destroyed. The goal of Israel, the U.S. and the Arab rulers and their cronies. The fear is that other nations would be “infected” with resistance and we can’t allow that to happen because that would mean changes to the established order.
It seems that just because they are Muslims everyone is jumping to assume that they are terrorists. Their religion gives them faith to endure the overwhelming odds against them. They have exercised tolerance of others groups. They have helped the poor and provided services to those forgotten. They have never placed pressure or threaten the Christian communities in their home. In fact, they have treated them with respect and protected them. And they are not enemies of the Jewish faith but of Zionist colonialism and Imperialism.
Israel can’t steel lands, attack people and nation, destroy a whole culture and talk about self defense. I mean it’s like if I took over my neighbor’s house through force and terror. And then when my neighbor returns to claim his rights. I scream self defense. Israeli soldiers are the occupying force. They are the defender of injustice. Like the French soldier in Algeria and the American soldier in Iraq, etc…………. human have the right to resist injustice and oppression by any means they have. These rights have been established even in the United Nation charter.
I claim no nationality, no religion. I am a human being, I am a worker and a mother and
“I am a revolutionary”
Fred Hampton, murdered by Chicago police at the age of 21, Black Panther Party for self defense 1960’s.
We must work toward ending all oppression within and without………………
@ruba6782 – I fully agree with your sentiments.
It has greatly saddened me that the world is standing by while Lebanese women and children and being bombed in their homes. It once again shows that in western minds an arab life is worth nothing. I watched the Isaeli UN envoy justifying their actions – that Hezbollah hides their weapons behind human shields. Maybe true, but it is the IDF that makes the decision that that human sheild is expendable in its pursuit of weapons.
Unfortunately the IDF is following tactics and policies no different to the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, and Russia in Chechnya – that the lives of their civilians are worth 10 times less than the lives of your soldiers, so you conduct your campaign from the air, from the sea and you successfully reduce your casualties to a bare minimum, while guaranteeing growing civilian casualties. The whole concept of "pin-point" strikes is a complete nonsense – there’s nothing pinpoint about a tonne of explosives, you may target it accurately, but it still destroys a whole neighbourhood.
I’ve just been watching John Bolton giving pathetic excuses for again confounding UN efforts to demand a ceasefire – saying he knew of no time when a ceasefire had worked between a state and a ‘terrorist’ organisation, hmm, let’s see, IRA – UK, Kenya-LRA, Spain-ETA, Turkey-PKK, but it allows the US to continue backing Israel in its attacks, like a thug letting his rottweiler off the leash to terrorise the neighbourhood because some kids were throwing stones.
I do not support Hezbollah’s actions in this matter either, their attack was diliberately calculated to encourage a disproportionate Israeli response, but I doubt even they could have predicted the callous disregard for human life currently being exhibited.
So the death toll so far:
Lebanese civilians – 300+
Lebanese Military – 9
Lebanese Hezbollah – 10?
Israel civilians – 15
Israeli military – 14
I really don’t think the Israeli citizens want this to be their legacy in Lebanon.
ruba6782, i totally agree with you.
i send you a hug from Argentina
This is 9th day of Israeli war on Lebanon, and it makes me feel really happy to see all the supportive messages from all around the world. My heartiest thanks to all of you.
@Traces in the sand: """Maybe true, but it is the IDF that makes the decision that that human sheild is expendable in its pursuit of weapons."""
Oh, the right decision is to stand by as they kill Israeli soldiers and shoot Israeli settlements, to avoid harming the human shields they are using??
Israel has tried that between 2000-2006, but in July 06, after many attacks, Israeli can no longer stand by.
"""Lebanese Hezbollah – 10?"""
According to the Israeli army, around 100.
I hope you also watched the film that demonstrates the usage of civilian facilities to hide weaponry by Hezbollah.
@gnupeaker – hezbollah casualties were based on those available 2 days ago, yes BBC said this morning that IDF figures for Hezbollah killed are around 100, with civilian deaths due to air strikes rising once again.
The right decision is to go after the hezbollah themselves, not to conduct punishment bombings of civilian areas of S Beiruit, Tyre and Sidon. Experts from the French, British and even the US military have stated that the IDF tactics are not consistent with targeted strikes against Hezbollah, that there has been little regard for "collateral damage", and the head of the French military evacuation team described what he had seen in Beirut of the effects of IDF bombing as "sickening".
I am well aware of the Hezbollah tactics, but when the IRA had weapons cached all over farms in South Armagh, and on both sides of the UK/Eire border we neither bombed those farms, nor did we bomb Dublin. Spain has never considered targeted strikes on covilian areas of Bilbao to be a sensible way of dealing with ETA, and when even the US thinks that dropping bombs may not be the best way to defeat someone, you really have to sit up and listen.
Now the IDF has told all civilians to leave South Lebanon, while at the same time saying that any large vehicle is a legitimate target, and already many have been killed while trying to evacuate northwards.
I am not saying, and I did not say that Israel has a right to self-defence, but the destruction of lebanon’s infrastructure and the targeting of civilians and civilian areas is not self-defence.
The real question is how many Lebanese deaths George Bush/Condy Rice are willing to accept before they will finally rein in Israel.
@Traces in the Sand: How can you tell which bombing was directed at Hezbollah and which wasn’t?
Bombing of bridges and roads can have tactical purposes other than harming civilians.
Bombing of neighborhoods obviously can have tactical purposes as well (as demonstrated by Hezbollah holding weapons there).
I am less familiar with the situation of the UK and the IRA, but I doubt that they employed the same tactics as Hezbollah, and that they have prepared as well as Hezbollah did to inflict as many casualties as possible in a ground battle – which is what Israel is trying to avoid.
A ground battle, also, does not guarantee low civilian casualties, when the other side uses humans as shields – as the fighting in the Palestinian territories have shown.
The simple truth is that there is no way to avoid the harming of civilians, and so there is no way to beat an organization like Hezbollah without harming civilians, and inevitably being criticized by the many voices, as we see here.
These voices, fortunately, do not shape the situation or Hezbollah would be an invincible source of violence for the region.
The only way to help these civilians, is to rid them of Hezbollah. The only way to rid them of Hezbollah, is to shoot through some of their human shields, as bad as that may sound.
@gnupeaker: Well, I can be pretty certain that the incidents of minibuses full of civilians fleeing their homes being attacked by IDF warplanes – including one incident where a whole convoy of vehicles was attacked, UN compounds in S Lebanon, homes which were close to launch sites (not actual launch sites, but guilty by proximity), the fuel depots and runways at Beirut airport, TV stations etc etc. Yes, destroying infastructure has a tactical purpose, but that tactical purpose is "turning back the clock 20 years" as Olmert said they would do, and has little to do with Hezbollah. The UN compounds which were attacked were again near to (but not) a launch site, showing a policy of attacking anything near a launch site, since the launchers will be long gone, and no purpose will be served in attacking the site itself.
Yes, you are right that a ground offensive will not guarantee low casualties, especially if Israel, as it seems at the moment, is going to mount a full scale invasion, since this will drag the Lebanese Army in, who will also be acting in self defence. Pandora’s Box will have truly been re-opened.
But, it’s your final comments that I both agree and disagree with. Yes the only way to truly help people, is to get rid of the militias and the terrorist organisations, but this will never, ever, ever, ever be achieved with guns and by killing people, because any organisation exists because of what people believe and you cannot change that by killing a few terrorists – in fact, you will only make those beliefs stronger. And the answers to those beliefs lie in the refugee camps of Lebanon, in the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and indeed, in Jeruslam, Damascus and Teheran.
If the countries involved in the war on terror spent as much money on economic development as they do on precision bunker-busting bombs there would never have been a need for a war on terror in the first place.
From the BBC today: UN appalled by Beirut devastation
The UN’s Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.
Mr Egeland, the UN’s emergency relief chief, described the destruction as "horrific" as he toured the city.
He arrived hours after another Israeli strike on Beirut. Israel also hit Sidon, a port city in the south crammed with refugees, for the first time.
Mr Egeland arrived in southern Beirut on Sunday just hours after Israeli strikes on the Hezbollah stronghold.
A visibly moved Mr Egeland expressed shock that "block after block" of buildings had been levelled.
He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".
He appealed for both sides to halt attacks and said UN supplies of humanitarian aid would begin to arrive in the next few days.
"But we need safe access," he said. "So far Israel is not giving us access."
Israel has said it will lift its blockade on Beirut’s port to allow aid through, but with roads, bridges and trucks among Israel’s targets, transporting it around the country is difficult.
I like what the Quakers have to say
http://www.afsc.org/news/2006/.....suffer.htm
Just imagine
Your home is destroyed
Half of your family memebers dead. May be your kids, sister, brother or parenets.
All your belongings gone
Even you no longer have a job
No dreams no diginity and no nothing!
And still you are expected to remain silent, extremely subdued and submissive…. This is what Isreal wants from Palestenians and Hizbullah
@alipk33 – It’s the 101 of how to create a terrorist!
1. Take away a man’s job
2. Take away his home
3. Take away his hope and dignity
4. Take away his family
A whole new generation is being radicalised all over the Middle East, and far from creating a "New Middle East" as Condy Rice says, it will create the conditions for a far greater spread of radicalism than ever before. I’m fairly sure this is not the result the US wants in the Middle East.
There’s a simple lesson that seems to have been ignored in every conflict for the last 50 years, that no matter what someone thought of you before, if you stand on his/her land holding a gun in your hand, he/she will grow to hate you.
@da-x: you say that the IDF don’t target civilians in the Occupied Territories or in Lebanon, but their tactics consistantly kill civilians in large numbers. Bombing residential ares, attacking ambulances, sniping at chilren, occupying civilian houses, all these tactics have been used for many years, and resulted in untold suffering. If the IDF wanted to avoid this suffering, it would stop using these tactics.
But, that would mean ending the Occupation, and leaving the settlers to fend for themselves, and which Israeli politician has the balls to do something like that?
@alipk33 : He doesn’t have to remain silent.
He can start fighting evil by creating a militia to find and kill Hezbollah/Hamas operatives.
@Traces in the Sand:
In the soviet union, civil rights were taken from many people, sometimes along with their jobs, family, home, hope and dignity. Guess what – it didn’t create terrorists, but it created dissidents that eventually made the soviet union fall into a democracy without firing a single shot. There are ways to solve things, and terrorism is not the way, nothing can justify it.
@Embra:
You can accept the facts of wars or you can just remain gullible to the idea that fighting in civilian terroists won’t cause civilian casualties. And BTW the so called Qana "massacre" was staged with the help of A.P. and friends to increase their news coverage rating. If you want to hear about real massacres, refer to the ‘Black September’ of 1970.
@da-x: The attack on Qana was staged by AP?? And no doubt the last attack on Qana in 1996 was staged by those evil Arabs too. No doubt the whole "occupation" thing is just made up by Evil Terrorists to fool the world into hating Israel.
For god’s sake, you sound like some bloody Holocaust Denier. I’ve spent enough time arguing with them to know that if people hate someone so much, they’ll never believe that they could suffer.
@Embra:
The accident in Qana shows how photo-journalism gets abused for the cause of the Hezbollah. Take a look at confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php . From some unverified sources I’ve heard that the Hezbollah prevented civilians from leaving this building knowing it would collapse. It is quite obvious that more dead Lebanese civilians serve the interest of the Hezbollah by strengthening the opinion of the world against Israel, therefore I would strongly suspect a biased media covering of the event.
Now about Qana’s in 1996, I haven’t looked into that event, so I have nothing to say about it, except that it looked more real that this one.
My opinion here doesn’t involve hate, I am just seeking out the facts. It’s terrible hearing about deaths in either side. If I were to sound like a holocaust denier, I would have said stuff in the style of Ahmadinejad, for example "let’s just erase all of lebanon" or something like that. Thankfully I am not that kind of a person. As someone who lost family in the holocaust, I think your comparison is out of place.
And don’t put words in my mouth, I don’t believe the occupation is made up (obviously you didn’t read what I wrote above or chose to ignore it), and also – I don’t believe in Evil as you mention it. There is no ‘evil’ in terrorism. Those who act by the way of terror just have different moral standards regarding the way to solve problems and lead their lives and the lives of people who sadly chose to depend on them.
The hypocrisy of the world regarding the whole situation is quite obvious.. When the holocaust denier Ahmadinejad, leader of a nation, openly and irrevocable calls for the destruction of Israel, i.e. calls for genocide and massacere of 6 million people, the world remainds silent. It doesn’t generate revenues for A.P., no one is interested.
No sane viewpoint can equate the moral standards of fighters that hide among innocent civilians (and cynically exploit their deaths for their propaganda) to the MO of the most moral army in the world. If you think otherwise, I’m sorry for you.
confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188768.php
As for the other points, I disagree.
@da-x:
In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.
The Indiscriminate Destructive Forces (aka IDF) continues to delibrately target civilians and this was confirmed by the Human Rights Watch report. Let me quote from my blog.
HRW Report:
Human Rights Watch produced a 53 page report on Israel’s atrocities and violations in Lebanon. The report can be viewed online or downloaded from their site. Following are excerpts from the summary of the report:
This report documents serious violations of international humanitarian law (the laws of war) by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in Lebanon between July 12 and July 27, 2006, as well as the July 30 attack in Qana… the cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
Since the start of the conflict, Israeli forces have consistently launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military gain but excessive civilian cost. In dozens of attacks, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as return strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.
The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.
@One_old_cat:
I watched the video recording and it is as ambiguous as it can get. On the other hand, it is so sad that you would describe the HRW as "stipid and ignorant"; this only shows that you have no respect for such human rights organizations. This doesn’t surprize me because Israel have no respect for human rights either.
@one_old_cat:
I see, you are the kind who like to talk and without listening to the other’s ponit of view. I advise you to spare your key strokes and go read the HRW report with an open mind. Or is the HRW anti-Semite too?
@lifeflaw: Didn’t you understand it till now? Everybody who says anything negative or has any critical opinion against Israel is anti-semitic and Nazi. No critic allowed please, especially not from (other) Semites
You can’t seriously expect Israel, in a time of war, to produce evidence of military activity of each and every bombing.
Israel has produced such evidence in numerous cases, but due to many reasons, it cannot do this for each and every bombing.
Also, as da-x has shown, Hezbollah makes false statements and even false videos in order to exaggarate the civilian casualties.
The Human Rights groups are looking at this situation very narrowly, and they obviously don’t have all of the intelligence necessary to determine whether or what merit a military strike has had. A statement that says a strike had "bogus military gain" is silly, coming from such an organization, and completely out of its scope.
However, the *obvious* point is:
If Israel were to target civilians, you can be damn sure a few orders of magnitude more civilians would be killed. Not only that, but they would probably not receive pre-cursor notices to leave the area. Israel is sacrificing Israeli lives and sends ground troops where an air raid could work, but would harm Lebanese civilians.
@one_old_cat:
You said: "I understand you have problems with truth, so you continue the hizballa’s propaganda. The hate for Jewish people and Israel is the main thread and issue of your posts." (link to comment)
So it is in your mindset after reading many of your comments and analyzing your debate logic; whenever someone talks anything that you don’t like you start accusing him of being a Jew hater or Anti-Semite.
Still, I don’t understand how asking you to read a report with an open mind would be insulting to you. Or you’re just insisting on having the last word?
@Fresco: I will delete any of your postings here by tomorrow, unless you open up your photos for comments
@one_old_cat: I warned you in another thread that I will block you if you kept posting, I have deleted your latest stupid rants which are long boring rehashes of a hodge podge of disinformation and stupidity… you had enough space to repeat yourself over and over already, If I see more comments, I will block you which will delete everything else you posted…
" (…)
The Bush Administration, however, was closely involved in the planning of Israel’s retaliatory attacks. President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced, current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials told me, that a successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign against Hezbollah’s heavily fortified underground-missile and command-and-control complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel’s security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American preëmptive attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground.
(…)
The initial plan, as outlined by the Israelis, called for a major bombing campaign in response to the next Hezbollah provocation, according to the Middle East expert with knowledge of U.S. and Israeli thinking. Israel believed that, by targeting Lebanon’s infrastructure, including highways, fuel depots, and even the civilian runways at the main Beirut airport, it could persuade Lebanon’s large Christian and Sunni populations to turn against Hezbollah, according to the former senior intelligence official.
(…)
The long-term Administration goal was to help set up a Sunni Arab coalition—including countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—that would join the United States and Europe to pressure the ruling Shiite mullahs in Iran. “But the thought behind that plan was that Israel would defeat Hezbollah, not lose to it,” the consultant with close ties to Israel said. Some officials in Cheney’s office and at the N.S.C. had become convinced, on the basis of private talks, that those nations would moderate their public criticism of Israel and blame Hezbollah for creating the crisis that led to war."
Article by Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/fact/.....821fa_fact
UN humanitarian chief blasts Israel’s use of ‘immoral’ cluster bombs
August 31, 2006
The UN humanitarian chief on Wednesday accused Israel of "shocking" and "completely immoral" behavior for dropping large numbers of cluster bombs on Lebanon when a cease-fire in its war with Hezbollah was in sight.
Jan Egeland said Israel had either made a "terribly wrong decision" or had "started thinking afterwards."
"What’s shocking and I would say, to me, completely immoral is that 90 per cent of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution," Egeland said at a news conference.
The spokeswoman for Israel’s mission to the UN, Anat Friedman, said she had no immediate comment on Egeland’s remarks. In Israel, the Israeli army referred to its earlier statement that all the weapons it uses "are legal under international law and their use conforms with international standards."
An unusual number of cluster bombs used in the war did not detonate on impact, possibly because they were old, Egeland said.
Usually 10 per cent to 15 per cent of the bomblets fail to explode immediately. According to some estimates, up to 70 per cent of the Israeli bomblets failed to explode on impact.
Civilians returning to their homes in southern Lebanon are experiencing "massive problems," as a result of these unexploded munitions, Egeland said.
Approximately 250,000 Lebanese of the 1 million displaced cannot move back into their homes, many because of unexploded munitions.
"Every day people are maimed, wounded and are killed by these ordnance," Egeland said.
UN and human rights organizations said Wednesday that 13 people, including three children, had been killed between the Aug.14 cease-fire and Tuesday. Forty-six have been wounded.
"Every day we have to revise our count of what the scope of the problem is," said Chris Clark, program manager of the U.N. Mine Action Coordination Center in southern Lebanon. "We just don’t know how big the problem is, only that it is huge at the moment and getting bigger every day."
Human Rights Watch researchers have said the density of cluster bombs in southern Lebanon was higher than in any place they had seen.
Egeland urged countries that sold cluster bombs to the Israelis, including the United States, to have "serious talks with Israel."
The UN Mine Action Coordination Center, which has so far assessed 85 percent of the bombed areas in Lebanon, has identified 379 bomb strike areas that are contaminated with as many as 100,000 unexploded bomblets.
Egeland said about 750,000 people had managed to return home, which he called "remarkable."
Hi, I’m an admin for a group called War and Peace, and we’d love to have your photo added to the group.
Yes, we are all over!
anyway, Rabih it seems that everyone was incorrect about anotther war this summer! That’s a good thing! No news is good news! Anyway, I came upon this by chance doing a search and its funny the difference a year makes!
take care!
Aaron
Hex-b ollah has no use for the Cedar Flag, they are craven followers of Syria and their paymasters in Teheran. The people of Lebanon want to be free and left alone, not pawns in the radicals’ war against Israel
Israelis are no different than when the white men came to North America and South America and enslaved, tortured, and made genocide on the Native Americans.
NO DiFFERENT
and ohhh how funny I find it that most Americans who support Israel are whites and how most Americans who do Not support Israel are Blacks and Indians!
(there are exceptions: my white American mother DESPISES Israel)
Hey Rabih how are you? Long time!
foreignobsessed:
You have it reversed: It is more like Native Americans from South and North America returned and claimed their land back from foreign invaders. That is what occurred in Israel and Israel has been rightfully returned to it’s original and just owners.
There is always a chance for people like yourself to become more educated, all you must do is some read some objective books. I wish you luck on that. Btw, your statements on black and whites sound racist and that surprised me since you seem to know better. People of all races have different opinions. You might know that more once you start reading more and become less arrogant. Good luck on that.
thank u for these facts, but israelians contiue arguments and giving reasons (lies) untill they take what they aim
Nobody cares about lebanon anymopre. we all love Tibet!
The same history….the criminal jews kill people and nothing happens…..it´s time to stop this kind of things!.
yup, it that simple "seig heil" all the problems of the world are caused by the Jews. This thinking helps to keep you from thinking.
I care about Lebanon!
I have friends from there!
Same old…as if Hizbollah cares about anything except making war
Hi . I’m Iranian, and I have traveled to Lebanon, in 2005. I was there, in beautiful Beirut, for 2 weeks, and I visited the borders of Lebanon and Israel. Marjayun ,Khiyaam, and the other great cities and villages in the south of Lebanon.
I don’t know why they ruined and killed …
So, this photo is a memorial for me !
Bravo
god bless you leb…
???? ???????
Lebanon was carved out of Syria to be a Christian land.
The so called "iSRAEL" is the butcher of children and criminal against humanity…
http://www.palestineremembered.com
http://www.jerusalem-holy-land.org
Only in Haifa died 18 civilians, so it is not true what You say. Israel wants peace. Before the war many many years suffered Israel from the missles sent by the Chizballa. We want peace, You want peace, maybe once it will be, Inchalla, Amen.
did somebody just say,"israel wants peace"? Israel bombed a sovereign nation like Lebanon with banned phosphorus bombs violating human rights and did even bomb UN office there!!! I guess thats how zionists plan on bringing peace to the world!
israel want peace ?
i think if you say isael 3 time fast you will say WAR by mistake , dude